Batman #14

[X]

The most important thing to know about this issue is that Joker tells Batman(and the rest of the Bat-clan) that he knows their secret identities(which I always assumed he knew already but just didn't care). He claims that he discovered the identities from a secret book in the Batcave(?). And that he was planning on killing the rest of the Bat-clan because they had made Bats soft and lazy. Which is all well and good, but how the hell is Jason Todd making Bruce soft?!? Anyway, this was a good comic, one that I'd give an 8 out of 10 to.

[JT]

I didn't read it as he got the names from the book, I don't think Bruce is careless enough to ever write those down, but I DO think that book is his Tower of Babel type contingency plan, and Joker's gonna sue that to take out the Bats/Robins to use what Bruce thinks are their weaknesses against them.

[X]

Jeez, didn't Bats learn the first time he pulled that one?! I mean after Ra's, you'd think he wouldn't put that on paper/in the computer, he'd just keep it in his head! Of course that means Joker always knew who all of that Bat-family members were, 'cause he did yell that he knew who they were. I always figured he knew, but didn't care, but this issue left me feeling that he DIDN'T know until he was(at some random point) in the Batcave.

[JT]

Like you, I figured he knew, I mean, after you know Bruce it's not that hard to figure the rest out, and since he "Created" Jason or some dumb shit, he obviously knew that, Babs is pretty obvious but maybe he didn't know Tim or Damian?

[X]

The Jason thing is really the best point. For as HORRIBLE(!!!!!!!!!) that story was, it confirmed that Joker knew that Bruce was Batman. Makes you wonder if Lobdell should have done that or not... I still think we're gonna get a reveal in this storyline where/when/how Joker discovers who Bruce is. After giving this comic another look, I still think Snyder is trying to say that Joker only learned who Bruce and co were recently... And if that's the case then Lobdell messed up(what a shock!) by showing that Joker knew at least what, 3/4 years ago?

[JT]

Either that or he knew Batman would find Jason then... have him live with a rich guy... or something...sigh, Goddamn Lobdell sucks.

[jw]

I thought one of the most interesting parts was that Bruce's "secret" may have something to do with why he thinks that Joker doesn't know. Bruce seems adamant that Joker doesn't know their identities when he's talking to Nightwing, to the point where Dick asks him if he's hiding something. Is the thing that he's hiding the reason why he "knows" that Joker doesn't know their identities? Of course, he seems less sure of himself on the bridge. (It's here where I realized how brilliant Capullo is, because I found myself agreeing with Joker that Bruce is off his game. Agreeing with Joker. Crazy.) But, allegedly, the secret has something to do with Batman "knowing" that the Bat-family is hindering him. Is it just a list of ways to take out the Bat-family or is it something more?

[JT]

You know JW... that's a GREAT point. You're right... Nightwing did ask Bruce that, and it seems like Bruce does think that to an extent having so many people to care about/rely on has made him weak. First I thought Bruce was just doubting the fact that Joker knew but your explanation makes a hell of a lot of sense. Although I gotta agree with X, how could Jason be making Bruce act soft, if anything... he should be tougher... then again we don't know if our current Jason did all the awesome shit he did prior to the New52 crap.

[jw]

Did you read "Batgirl" #14? I won't spoil it, but let me know if you did/plan to read it, because it leaves, to my mind, a hint about this whole issue of whether he really knows. I just wonder if Batman, like, brainwashed Joker or something to make sure that he'd never learn their identities and Joker just discovered it. It would have to be something that really compromises his integrity, something that would make the Bat-family think less of him.

No idea on the Jason part. Maybe Joker feels like he's still carrying around the guilt? I also wonder how the hell this story fits with Lobdell's. After all, Lobdell already told us that Joker knew. If you take that revelation as canon, it makes his reveal here pretty ho-hum.

[JT]

I didn't yet, Lisha got it so I planned on reading it after she does. And you mean, like... kinda how they did Doctor Light in Identity Crisis? That would be interesting, especially considering the moral stance Bruce had on that.

Yep, so we're all in agreement that Lobdell has inadvertently ruined everything... damn Lobdell. Well not everything, but it's easier to hate him and say everything.

[X]

Everything about what you guys said is interesting... I could easily see Bruce taking Joker to the Cave and trying to brainwash/hypnotize Joker into forgetting/not learning Batman's identity(and as a result, everybody else's identities). But then that flies in the face of Bruce from Identity Crisis, since he was one of the most vocal opponents of Zatanna. But then again, did Identity Crisis even happen? Damn confusing DC... Plus that would explain how Joker knew about the Cave. Because in this issue he clearly references the Batcave, which means he definitely knows something.

And of course there's the Red Hood/Lobdell thing... Which, absolutely, positively, did NOT have to happen!!! I remember enjoying that comic book(the Red Hood #0 issue), as much as one can enjoy that series, right up until the Joker reveal, which destroyed the whole comic for me. If Lobdell would have just stopped and not run that backstory, THIS storyline would be SO much clearer. As it is, it seems obvious to anybody who read Red Hood #0 that yeah, Joker knows, and always has known Batman's identity, thus making the reveal that he knows Bruce is Batman here(if that's where Snyder is going) a letdown.